Local Dad Pushes Toy-Gun Ban
Concerned father says look-alike handguns are dangerous and should be banned from local ice cream trucks.
Photos
Last week's shooting by an LAPD officer of a 13-year-old boy with a toy gun has again brought to the public's attention an issue of concern to at least one local parent.
Lester Salay, who has taken his concerns to the Chatsworth Neighborhood Council, says he's alarmed at how accessible the real-looking toy weapons are to children.
He said his 14-year-old-daughter walked up to an ice cream truck around the corner from nearby Nobel Middle School one day after class and bought a pellet-firing black toy gun that Salay said looked much too real.
"They look just like real guns," said Salay. "I know, because I have 20 firearms myself." Salay said he is an NRA-certified gun instructor, a military veteran and a Boy Scout leader.
He had asked his daughter to purchase the toy gun after her classmate was suspended for bringing a similar gun to school that the administration believed was a real firearm. Salay wanted to know how easy it was for children to obtain these guns.
After his daughter bought one, he tested the toys' accessibility again by sending his younger, 12-year-old daughter to an ice cream truck near Winnetka park. She was shown three types of guns from which to choose.
Echoing Salay's concerns are members of Councilman Greig Smith's staff as well as the Chatsworth Neighborhood Council.
"I saw a photo of the Glassell Park toy gun, and that's the exact gun Lester Salay brought to our Neighborhood Council meeting," said council President Judith Daniels. "It looked like the real thing."
Federal law requires look-alike guns to be clearly marked by either a bright orange tip or a completely bright or transparent color. However, the guns sold from the truck look real. Guns like the ones purchased by his daughters are supposed to be limited to adults, but ice cream vendors are not mandated to ask for identification.
"It's absurd that they sell replicated toy guns, because it is so dangerous," said Mitch Englander, Smith's chief of staff. "And the fact that you would sell them at [an ice cream] truck is different. It's different if you go up to a toy store because children don't typically go in there and purchase items alone. But at the ice cream truck, kids often go alone."
Englander, who is also a reserve LAPD officer, fears that if the toy gun is in a child's pocket or within reach, it may look to police officers or others like a real gun, possibly putting the child in danger.
It happened last Thursday. An LAPD officer shot a 13-year-old boy, believing he was holding a real gun that turned out to be a toy. Officers were patrolling a Glassell Park neighborhood when they reportedly saw three people who began running as they stopped their car to investigate. According to police, Officer Victor Abarca told one of the three to surrender, but instead he took out a pellet gun, which the officer thought was a handgun. Believing the boy was a young adult because of his size, police said, the officer shot and wounded the boy, who was reported in critical but stable condition.
"The pellet gun the juvenile was using is the exact dimensions of a Beretta 92 F, and is indistinguishable from a real handgun on a dark night," said Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck in a statement. "We have seen far too much heartbreak involving these types of realistic-looking guns that are labeled as toys." The shooting is still under investigation.
"When you see a 14- or 15-year-old kid with a gun, they are just as capable of shooting, so we have to take it very seriously," said Englander. He says the councilman's office has received inquiries about toy guns and is working with law enforcement to investigate local trucks that sell these guns. Englander also encourages parents to become more aware of these toy guns and talk to their kids about potential danger.
But kids are not the only ones in danger. Here are a few examples:
—At a 2000 Halloween party, actor Anthony Dwain Lee was shot to death by an LAPD officer who mistook a replica gun for a real one and fired nine shots, hitting the 39-year-old four times.
—A man who pointed what appeared to be a handgun at LAPD officers was shot and killed on July 16 in Pacoima. The weapon turned out to be a replica handgun, investigators said.
—In 2006, boxer Mike "The Bounty" Hunter, armed with a replica gun, was shot in the chest and arm in an altercation with the LAPD. Hunter, 46, died.
Salay is aware that the mandated orange tip on look-alike guns can be colored over by aduts or children using a black permanent marker.
"I can modify the orange blaze top within two minutes with a black Sharpie, which I have done," Salay said.
He has asked the Public Safety and Transportation Committee of the Chatsworth Neighborhood Council to appeal to local government to ban the sale of toy weapons.
Ice cream vendor Maria Hernandez says a toy gun is "not dangerous because it's plastic." She says she sometimes shoots the guns inside the truck when no customers are around and is not afraid because she calls the plastic bullets harmless. She says if parents are fearful, they should stop guns from being sold at the warehouse where vendors buy the products.
"We need to do something to keep our children safe," said Salay.
Saul Daniels contributed to this story.
JJ Swiontek
10:12 am on Wednesday, December 22, 2010
"Section 417.2 of the Penal Code is amended to read: 417.2. (a) Any person who, for commercial purposes, purchases, sells, manufactures, ships, transports distributes, or receives, by mail order or in any other manner, an imitation firearm except as permitted by this section shall be liable for a civil fine in an action brought by the city attorney of the city or the district attorney of the county of not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000) for each violation."
Further: "the coloration of the entire exterior surface of the device [must be] bright orange or bright green, either singly or in combination."
The story should not be that the fake weapon that look realistic can be bought. The REAL story is why the city attorney or county DA is not enforcing the state law!!!
Do you people not even KNOW your own laws?!?!?
Lester Salay
8:35 pm on Friday, December 24, 2010
Hi JJ,
I am the "dad" who has brought this matter to the publics attention.
With all the financial ailments that our city faces, law enforcement cannot go to each of these vendors and become the "Ice Cream Police".
What we CAN DO is enact a City Wide Ban of the sales of these guns from the werehouses that supplies the vendors with their confections.
The guns in question clearly states on the box in bold letters "For ages 18 and up”, yet no ID was asked of my 12 year old daughter.
We need a blanket CITY/STATE LAW that bans the sale of any type of "toy" guns from being sold from anywhere except legitimate stores.
It is up to the parents to act like parents and monitor their children’s activities and whereabouts.
Blame the parents not the LAPD for such negligence.
What in the world is a 13 year old kid doing out late at night when he should be at home.
Where does parental responsibility come into play here ?
Lastly, even educated kids know that when an officer gives you a command they are to obey that command like it or not. If you have nothing to hide everyone can go move on peacably.
Had that 13 year old complied with the officers orders this tragedy would be a mute point.
Ban the sales of these guns from the supplier werehouses City Wide.
Want Change ? Write your politicians instead of just lamenting.
WE, the responsible parents can make a difference.
Stop blaming the police and put the blame where it belongs - On the parents !
Linda Coburn
10:17 am on Wednesday, December 22, 2010
To JJ -- this is good information and ammunition, excuse the pun, for parents to get these things removed from local vendors.
JJ Swiontek
12:39 pm on Wednesday, December 22, 2010
Thank you Linda,
I'm glad I could help. I would recommend that the city issue a warning to all vendors that this law will be enforced from now on and to please stop the practice of selling these look-a-likes. I'm sure that once a vendor is informed that they will be subject to civil fine, they will stop selling them.
If I can be of further assistance, please, don't hesitate to ask.
JJ
Mama Liberty
11:38 am on Wednesday, December 22, 2010
Teach your children to think and act responsibly. The only thing that needs to be "banned" are the cops with their nickers in such a twist that they can't evaluate a situation by anything except mindless panic.
Kids have had toy guns for centuries, even when they were just whittled sticks. Nobody shot them until just recently.
Inanimate objects are not responsible for anyone's behavior. You have to be human for that.
W W Woodward
11:54 am on Thursday, December 23, 2010
The Chatsworth Patch 21 Dec. story entitled Local Dad Pushes Toy-Gun Ban includes the following statements:
He said his 14-year-old-daughter … bought a pellet-firing black toy gun that Salay said looked much too real. "They look just like real guns," said Salay.
The Chatsworth Patch news story goes on to say: “Federal law requires look-alike guns to be clearly marked by either a bright orange tip or a completely bright or transparent color. However, the guns sold from the truck look real.”
Actually, federal law doesn’t require; “Traditional B-B, paint-ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of compressed air, compressed gas or mechanical spring action, or any combination thereof … “ to be marked in any manner at all. See Code of Federal Regulations Title 15 Sec. 1150.1 Applicability (b)
Isaak D. Koenka
3:54 pm on Monday, December 27, 2010
That is the federal law, not the State Penal Code.
Lester Salay
7:16 pm on Friday, December 24, 2010
I am the Dad that is concerned about toy guns being sold from Ice Cream Vendors.
My sole "crusade" is to protect YOUR kids and MINE !
We need a law banning "toy guns" from Ice Cream Trucks as they are too accessible to kids without parental oversight/consent.
You speak of the “good old days" when kids could play cops and robbers without fear of harm.
We live in a much different world then we did back then, as these days 13 year old gang members do carry real guns to KILL !.
It seems some want to blame the police, instead of addressing their own parental reponsibilities.
For anyone to say that these toy guns are harmless; at 307 feet per second of velocity these pellets can puncture skin/eyes and the red laser bean light that is attached to them could blind someone also.
MY POINT: Why is an Ice Cream Truck a venue for selling guns when a parent can obtain one from a sporting outlet ?
Please don't get me wrong, as an NRA Firearms Instructor and Veteran I am 100% in favor of all law abiding citizens exercising their second amendment right to bare arms.
Parents need to step up and be parents, yet most of the "police haters" want to blame everyone else for their own lack of NON parenting.
Also keep in mind that if an item has a legal age requirement then the vendors are breaking the law by selling a minor a gun that clearly states on the box "for ages 18 and up".
I am dumbfounded at the bashing of our police officers because of uninvolved parents.
Isaak D. Koenka
3:42 pm on Monday, December 27, 2010
It is illegal already to sell "replica" firearms of any sort to minors without the parents being present. To be completely frank, I don't think the fake guns are the worst thing coming off of Ice Cream Trucks. I know from personal experience that you can purchase anything from illegal fireworks, like Blackcats, all the way to methamphetamine and heroin. I'm not trying to say that all Ice-Cream Trucks are running dope, but there are a number of individuals in the world, it seems LA county especially, that are willing to do pretty much anything for money. Since they are a traveling venue, they make a difficult target to prove that it was in fact a certain truck, rather than another, and even harder for the police to track down in the first place. I've worked in a sports store selling these guns, and first of all, I'd sadly like to disagree with Mr. Salay and say that 300 fps may leave a welt, but unless shot right in the eye that is a very low amount of kinetic energy, and slows down even further every 10 feet away you are. Remember that these guns are not rifled like real firearms, so the plastic BB has a bit of a 'knuckle-ball' effect after 25 feet. Also this these model BB guns will not shoot the metal BBs that your old Daisy would, and become lethal around 8 pumps. In fact, you are unable to even pump the air chamber more than once with this gun. That said, I completely agree that Ice Cream Trucks especially should not be selling fake guns to little girls.
Isaak D. Koenka
3:48 pm on Monday, December 27, 2010
The truth is that there is a market for the fake guns. As an owner, I can go buy all the BB guns on special at Big 5 Sporting Goods, and sell them for twice the price to little kids, who specifically want the ones that look real. The fact that there are 13 year old assassins running around with real guns is scary, but imagine being 13, and knowing that if push comes to gun fight, they'll be SOL, unless they can look like they have a gun too because as we all know the knowledge of someone having a firearm is usually a deterrent to commit a crime against them. If there was no market, there would be no selling; Supply and Demand. I am curious as to how much the Ice Cream Man wanted for the guns.
Lester Salay
11:20 pm on Monday, December 27, 2010
Greetings Mr. Isaak,
While I whole heartedly agree with the fire power of the plastic guns and your probability of drugs being sold by SOME of these vendors I think we are all still missing the "Big Picture" here.
We as responsible parents and law abiding gun owners need to kick some political butts to STOP the sale of these VERY realistic guns from any street vendors period.
This is by no means (at least on my part) a second amendment issue of the right to bare arms.
This whole subject came about as a fellow classmate of my daughters bought one from around the corner of Nobel Middle School and got busted by campus police.
Why, Why, Why, are our elected politicians backing away from this issue ?
The remedy is very simple .. Ban the sale of these guns from street vendors at the County or State level. That being done - CASE CLOSED !
I am so ticked that our politico's are not doing anything to protect our children and the sanctity of our police officers. Bunch of chickens because they (the politicians) are afraid of the NRA ?
So let me say to Councilmen Zine, Smith, Assemblyman Blumenfield, and Mr. Mayor
WHY ARE YOU NOT DOING SOMETHING ?
I have written to all of you and you just sit there and wait for what ... A death of a child ?
As for your question as to cost Mr Isaak ... They start at $3.50, $5.00 and the one's with flashlights and red laser beams are $8.00.
Isaak D. Koenka
3:09 pm on Wednesday, December 29, 2010
Sickeningly inexpensive. I'm not a parent, and I'm not a police officer, but as a gun owner, I respect the fact that safety should be the first responsibility of any gun owning society. I think the parents need to reinforce the fact that guns are for killing, and that police have to show a little more caution when dealing with people that are obviously young, or intoxicated. The LAPD just shot a kid with a fake gun, and a drunk with a hose nozzle. The law-makers have everything they would need for an effective campaign against selling these guns, but you run back into the same problem of enforcing the law. It is already illegal to sell these fake firearms to minors. The Ice Cream man is already breaking the law, without penalty. We can't have our law enforcement personnel turn into the Ice Cream Truck police, and leave the rest of the citizenry unprotected. What is the real solution? I don't know, myself.
Lester Salay
1:25 am on Thursday, December 30, 2010
Hopefully this will be my last post regarding the Ice Cream Truck issue, as our elected officials have taken note (and heat) of the problem at hand.
According to statements from Councimembers Smith and Zine this issue will be addressed in January and will lead to resolve this matter once and for all.
We already have legislative laws in place regarding the brandishing of replica guns.
Note the existing paragraph of the article October 08, 1987 (see link below) that states:
"Los Angeles County and a number of cities voted to make it a misdemeanor to brandish replica toy guns menacingly, and the City of Burbank voted to ban the sale of realistic toy arms altogether".
In September, Gov. George Deukmejian signed legislation making it a misdemeanor to brandish a phony firearm threateningly.
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-10-08/news/mn-13007_1
My last gripe is with the LAPD and the District Attorneys Office for NOT prosecuting the moron kid who did not comply with the officers commands.
Fine the werehouses who supply these guns to vendors and this issue will be resolved and no other child will be subject to harm.
According to current law, the kid who brandished the "fake gun" should be arrested, booked, and stand trial in Juvenile Court and be mandated to do several hours of Community Serivice as restitution to society.
The PARENT should also have to pay a fine for not monitoring thier kid.
THE TRUE FAULT LIES WITH LACK OF PARENTAL SUPERVISION.
Crazybaseballmom
7:16 am on Thursday, December 30, 2010
Wow.....all of this energy into something that seems so simple to solve. What is the benefit of having toy guns look real? I am totally ok with kids playing with toy guns, but they shouldn't look real, they should be bright and colored. If there is a possibility of our kids being killed due to their toy gun looking real, then just don't make the real guns available. It's too bad that a compnay is making these guns look so real and honestly a 13 year old wants the gun looking real to be cool......a 6 year old just wants a gun to play with.
Yes, Lester I totally blame the parents and like you I am sick of everyone blaming the cops and teachers for their kids being screwed up. It starts at home and it starts at a young age! Wake up people, this issue is easily fixed, so let's try and fix it!
Isaak D. Koenka
12:20 pm on Thursday, December 30, 2010
The realistic looking guns are supposedly targeted towards the over 18 crowd, as there are many shooting competitions using air soft guns, and it is even being considered for the Olympics. Obviously, as with anything marketed to those in their late teens, younger people are going to want to look 'cool' by having the same things e.g. smoking and drinking. Actual pellet guns are modeled to look exactly like the real guns as replicas, without any florescent tip, but they can cost up to $200 dollars; As much and nearly as dangerous as a real gun. It really does fall onto the parents to keep their kids from purchasing these cheap, and dangerous fake guns, but you can't blame the manufacturer. It would be like blaming the manufacturer of real guns for any gun related homicide or even suicide. I was taught about guns at an early age, and it seems to me like the kids that are buying these guns, with the exception of Mr. Salay, don't have a parent teaching them, but rather other children.
DonM
3:08 pm on Tuesday, January 18, 2011
When I was a kid, I used to carve wood scraps into guns, with varying degrees of realism. Sometimes I would play with them. Amazingly I never got shot. Other kids made toy guns out of Legos(tm). Some even made fake destructive devices (hand grenades) out of water balloons or snow balls.
I guess police were better trained back then. Any police officer who shoots a kid with a replica gun should be prosecuted for murder, and his department should be decertified, and disestablished.
DonM
12:03 pm on Wednesday, January 19, 2011
Keep in mind that a gang of police recently shot a man for handling a hose nozzle. Police officers need to own their actions, and police departments need to be responsible for their members. The police department should be jointly and severally liable for mistakes made by police officers, so they don't make their city's citizens pay for their criminal recklessness.
Lester Salay
11:52 pm on Tuesday, January 18, 2011
DonM. This is not your forum to degrade police officers. It is obvious from your police bashing rhetoric that you did NOT READ the original article, as this is about replica firearms that look VERY REAL and cannot be distinguished from real guns, being sold to under aged children from Ice Cream trucks.
Your police bashing also indicates that a one time you had a run in with the judicial system and blame every officer for your bad judgment.
Obviously you are living in the past as you don't realize that in South Central L.A. nine year old kids are carrying real guns and are willing to use them. Read the original article and realize that these 3 idiot kids were out late at night, shooting off pellet guns and when confronted by police two complied, yet one idiot kid hid behind a truck and emerged brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner. PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE and tell me it is OK with YOU for a 12 year old girl by a gun that clearly states on the box "For ages 18 and above". Are you not bothered by that y?
I will say in passing, should your family be invaded by a crack head willing to kill them DO NOT CALL THE POLICE! We law abiding citizens need their help more than you deserve it.